Curse

Spura · Jun 14, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Missed this one before. I've got another off-hand attack to add to that list.

Black Lotus Strike.

Moebius strike doesn't require lead as well.

Rikimaru · Jun 14, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

I Think Death Blossom is better than Blades of Steel. It does roughly +40 and 40 to all adjacent foes x2 vs possible +50 to a single target x2. And they both cost only 5 energy.

Vecte · Jun 14, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

I Think Death Blossom is better than Blades of Steel. It does roughly +40 and 40 to all adjacent foes x2 vs possible +50 to a single target x2. And they both cost only 5 energy.

yea, but the enemy has to be away from allies in order for horns of the ox to knock them down. your only chance for DB to be useful is if an enemy/enemies run up to you as you are performing the attack, which is really a small chance. I would rather do more damage to that one person and hope to finish them off rather than hope for a small aoe.

Claymore · Jun 14, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

I think what Rikimaru is getting at is that Death Blossom is a gauranteed +40 x 2 vs possible +50 from Blades of steel, aoe aside, for an investment of 5 energy. What if forwhatever reason you don't have enough recharging dagger skills if get the full benefit of BOS?

Vecte · Jun 14, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

think about it.

this does require the build i posted, which im assuming rik is going off of.

leaping mantis sting, 8 second recharge
jungle strike, 10 second recharge
horns of the ox, 12 second recharge
falling spider, 8 second recharge

ok, an assassin takes all but a second or so to perform a skill, if hoto is successful in knocking the opponant down, that means you can reach blades of steel. after performing falling spider, nearly in every circumstance, leaping mantis sting has 3-4 seconds left on recharge, which is ample time to perform blades of steel, thus resulting in 2 +50s. the only really way this wouldnt work is if you have faintheartedness or shadow of fear, or any other attack slowing hex for that matter, which is just bad anyways. so, for taking out a single target, this is excellent.

now of course, i can see how db has good uses. if you cleary see that hoto is not going to knock the opponant down, you can simply follow this chain below:

Leaping Mantis Sting -> Jungle Strike -> Death Blossom

which will proc the two extra attacks on every enemy. this is expecially useful in pve. now in pvp, i still think that the little bit extra damage is more useful.

now looking at it though, death blossom as its advantages in pvp as well, especially when you compare cooldowns:

DB, 12 seconds
BoS, 20 seconds

guess it is a matter of preference.

Francis Demeules · Jun 14, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Dark Prison (hex)
Iron Palm
Falling Spider
Twisted Fangs
Return

a get in/get out by using some Deadly arts (except Return). You can put Entagling Asp, not for poison, but to make a double knockdown or mark of instability.

Tingi · Jun 14, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

My Build uses this:

AoD
Golden Phoenix Strike
Horns of the Ox
Falling Spider
Twisted Fangs (or Death Blossom)
Shadow Refuge
Dark Escape
Rez Sig

Shred Dread · Jun 14, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

2 Questions:

Is it really worth using Entangling Asp as the knockdown for Falling Spider? If you use Asp, then Falling Spider might as well be a +dmg attack.

Also, are there any dual attacks that don't require a skill to come before them? This could make Mark of Instability a possibility as a knockdown skill for Falling Spider.

Claymore · Jun 15, 2006, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathWise

Most used build including Falling Spider in PvP is the following:

1. Lead Attack of choice.
2. Off-hand Attack of choice.
3. Dual Attack Horns of the Ox.
4. Off-hand Attack Falling Spider.
5. Dual Attack of choice.
6. Self healing of choice. (Could be Shadow Refuge, Troll Inguent, etc.)
7. Teleport skill. (AoD [Elite] (Aura of Displacement) is often used.)
8. Movement speed boost skill. (Mostly Dark Escape or Dash.)

Obviously this build works as followed:

TP in with for example AoD, successively execute your Lead Attack and Off-hand Attack. Then execute Horns of the Ox which leads to the knockdown of your foe if he/she isn't adjacent to any allies. Right after your foe is knocked down, you can successfully pull of Falling Spider, since your foe is knocked down. And since it is an Off-hand Attack, you can do another Dual Attack immediately after. After your combo is done, you can either dismiss your AoD skill or run away using a movement speed increasing skill. This will enable a quick move in, quick executing of your combo and quickly move out as well. Alternatively, after you TP'd in and successfully executed both your Lead Attack and Off-hand Attack, you can immediately pull of your Dual Attack of your choice if you find your opponent being adjacent to allies. Also this build doesn't require obligated TP'ing, you could as well just attack if you find this necessary. This contrast to builds using Lead Attack Golden Lotus Strike and Off-hand Attack Golden Phoenix Strike, which actually require to TP or atleast have an Enchantment on you. I find this very dependant on the circumstances and not be as independant as you'd want. But I find my build very successful and it is also my main PvP build.

Just make sure that your Lead Attack, Off-hand Attack and Dual Attack of choice do not consume too much mana, which will result in a less fluent combo which can be very annoying. Especially when you use AoD. This elite skill costs 10 energy and takes away 1 energy regeneration. What would work for sure is having all your attack skills cost 5 energy. If you happen to have a set of Zealous daggers you can screw your Dual Attack of choice up to 10 energy.

This build mainly revolves around two skills: Horns of the Ox and Falling Spider. But if you include Leaping Mantis Sting for example as a Lead Attack you can be much more versatile with Crippling, but it's completely up to you how to fill these slots.

Hope this is helpful.

IMOP Entangling asp is not worth the energy to be just a KD for falling spider, if the poisoning stacked or another aspect of the skill stack well with falling spider it might be worth it, but there are more effiicient builds to KD your enemy. And second question, no there are no dual attacks that do not require an off-hand skill to prime them, there are however off-hand attack skills that do not require a lead attack to prime them.

Check out this build by Deathwise, I tried it last night and 90% of the time I can't even get all the way through the 5 skill chain because the target is dead before I finish it!

Yakumo · Jun 15, 2006, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claymore

Check out this build by Deathwise, I tried it last night and 90% of the time I can't even get all the way through the 5 skill chain because the target is dead before I finish it!

I tried it out in PvE and it's a very strong offensive build. I only managed to put off the 5 skill chain against bosses.

The beauty of the set up is the options available.

With quick recharging lead and off-hand attacks of choice, you can quite quickly pull off: two 3 skill chains, or one 4 skill and one 3 skill chain, or the full 5 skill chain.

I found that whether I stayed with my original target or switched, a chain was ready in a couple of seconds. If Horns of the Ox didn't knock them down, I had the option to stay and hit them with another 3 skill chain or kite to someone else and hit them instead.

Claymore · Jun 15, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

I wonder with like you said the versitility of various 2 and 3 skill chains available, how well it would do in PvP?

Yakumo · Jun 16, 2006, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claymore

I wonder with like you said the versitility of various 2 and 3 skill chains available, how well it would do in PvP?

Some builds are set up to perform a huge amount of damage. If the chain is interrupted, there is a downtime before it can be attempted again, with limited options to do anything else.

With the right set up, you can pull off a long chain to deal large damage quickly or use the various chains to apply constant pressure or kill off a weaken target.

May slightly go off topic, but it does point out a minor weakness in the use of Falling Spider.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vecte

what i have found works well for my any any situation is this:

Leaping Mantis Strike -> Jungle Strike -> Horns of the Ox -> Falling Spider

Of course, you have to hope the enemy is somewhat isolated for Hoto to work.

Now using DeathWise's set up (and Vecte's build), we have this chain.

1. Leaping Mantis Strike -> Jungle Strike -> Horns of the Ox -> Falling Spider -> Blades of Steel

It's a good build, however, as pointed out, the enemy has to be isolated for HotO to continue the chain (probably less of a problem in PvP).

But the chain can be broken at anytime with a knock down, evasion/block stance etc (forcing you to switch target). Even if you managed to pull off a 3 skill chain, the attack skills left are unusable for awhile (unless a knock down is available from another source for HotO).

Leaping Mantis Strike takes 8 seconds to recharge and Jungle Strike, 10 seconds. A full 3 skill chain (or even just 2) will take 10 seconds to be available (of course you can start using each one as they become available and slowly apply the damage).

Now using Jagged Strike and Wild Strike as the lead and off-hand:

2. Jagged Strike -> Wild Strike -> Horns of the Ox -> Falling Spider -> Blades of Steel

Both take 4 seconds to recharge. If the chain is broken, the waiting time is reduced by 6 seconds. At minimum, you will always have a 2 skill chain available every 4 seconds. E.g. Your original target has gone into a blocking stance, you've already used your lead and off-hand... switch target and you have a chain ready in 4 seconds.

Falling Spider is conditional (foe must be knocked down) and is dependant on HotO... the weak point in the chain.

Pushing this to a (unconditional) 3 skill chain and a 2 skill chain, it can look like this.

3. Jagged Strike -> Wild Strike -> Horns of the Ox => Palm Strike {E} -> Blades of Steel

The various chains available have increased as Palm Strike is unconditional. Combine the 2 chains, and you effectively still have a full 5 skill chain (although it's not a real chain that's linked). As Palm Stike is not dependant on HotO, it can be used any time e.g. your original target has gone into a blocking stance, you've already used your lead and off-hand... switch target and a chain is already available starting with Palm Strike.

I've not tried it yet, but I see the build to be very energy hungry to pull off the 5 skill chain.

The full 5 skill chain from either builds should be able to kill something outright, or give the Monk something to really worry about. The various chain combinations can be useful to apply constant pressure. The quicker a chain is available, the more pressure you can apply.

Claymore · Jun 16, 2006, 02:53 PM // 14:53

I can't remember of hand exactley what skills I have as I used Deathwise's post as a guide to my skill set up. I will post my specific build later and you guys can have a wack at it a tell what you think. I know I used HOTO and FS, ok wait, I think its JS=>FF=>HOTO=>FS=>then either critical strike or twisting fangs. I use Critical eye as prep, and a shadow step skill, then rez sig.

Jagged strike>iron palm>falling spider>then either twisting fangs or critical strike, is another build I favour.

DeathWise · Jun 17, 2006, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claymore

I wonder with like you said the versitility of various 2 and 3 skill chains available, how well it would do in PvP?

Well, actually this build is designed for PvP, so obviously it works very well there. Much better than any other builds I have seen. In PvE however it's rather different since I have another slightly more defensive build for that. But the build I mentioned before is solely for PvP.

Now I will explicitely share my exact build with you since then I can elaborate a bit on it.

1. Lead Attack Leaping Mantis Sting.
2. Off-hand Jungle Strike.
3. Dual Attack Horns of the Ox.
4. Off-hand Attack Falling Spider.
5. Dual Attack Twisting Fangs.
6. Shadow Refuge.
7. Aura of Displacement [Elite].
8. Dark Escape.

The second Dual Attack is Twisting Fangs as you can see. Actually this is the single most powerful skill an Assassin has. This because it adds bonus damage (+19 at Level 13 Critical Hits), Bleeding AND Deep Wound for 18 seconds (not to mention the possible Poison added by Falling Spider with a duration of 21 seconds at Dagger Mastery Level 16, which I think every Assassin that is offensively orientated must have to deal nice damage and to get the highest possible Attack Speed which very significantly increases your efficiency, although Level 15 could also do). Dealing bonus damage and adding two conditions in one attack is massive. Also I find this attack great to finish off people because by placing Deep Wound on a foe, his health immediately drops by 20% so when I execute Twisted Fangs, I see the health of my opponent seriously drop and barely anyone survives. Blades of Steel could also prove a useful alternative as seen above. But it is just so circumstancial, to get the most out of it you only got one option: 1 combo, and that is the entire 1 through 5. Your other combo's like 1, 2 and 5 become much less powerful since you'll only have 2 recharging Dagger Attack Skills. Also it is pure damage, and I'm quite fond of fiddling with conditions. In short, Blades of Steel will make you less versatile and leaves you with fewer options all for the sake of a circumstancial extra +50 damage while you can even finish off an opponent without it. For this reason I choose Twisted Fangs over Blades of Steel.

The only downside is perhaps the high energy cost of 10. But this almost never has been a problem for me. As stated earlier I wield Zealous Daggers and I have Level 13 Critical Hits, so with each normal hit I gain +1 energy, and with each Critical Hits (which occurs regularly with Level 13 and occurs even more when an opponent has his back turned to you and / or is running this way which happens quite often I must say), I gain a whopping +4 energy. So I do not have that much energy problems, although ofcourse sometimes I would have to wait for another of my attacks to land to gain enough energy to perform Twisted Fangs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakumo

I tried it out in PvE and it's a very strong offensive build. I only managed to put off the 5 skill chain against bosses.

The beauty of the set up is the options available.

With quick recharging lead and off-hand attacks of choice, you can quite quickly pull off: two 3 skill chains, or one 4 skill and one 3 skill chain, or the full 5 skill chain.

I found that whether I stayed with my original target or switched, a chain was ready in a couple of seconds. If Horns of the Ox didn't knock them down, I had the option to stay and hit them with another 3 skill chain or kite to someone else and hit them instead.

And that's exactly one of the great advantages of this build, you have the choice to do several different combo's depending on the circumstances. Say an opponent is alone and by himself, you can get up on him, perform the full combo (1 through 5) and unless your foe has activated a block / evade skill or is massively healing himself (Monk), he always perishes. And even if the do manage to survive due to blocking / evading / healing, you can still chase him easily if he decides to run. Since all of your attacks have decent recharges, you can easily perform another combo, whether it's smaller than 1 through 5 or not, you can keep attacking with high damage, which I think is important.

If you find your opponent to be in a crowded mass, you TP in, perform combo 1, 2, 5. Then you can decide for yourself if it would be safer to TP out or to stay and attack. You should also decide for yourself every time you start attacking someone, if it is possible to execute Horns of the Ox with a successful knockdown so you can also perform Falling Spider successfully after this.

So you see, you can vary quite a bit in combo's and adjust to the circumstances if necessary.